Council Tax and Full Timers

John and Joan

Well-Known Member
I think DEFRA lost the contract. I think its now Natural England who look after it
Natural England is an executive agency of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs" (DEFRA). Natural England are simply a managing agent for DEFRA in England . The Scottish Executive (for sites in Scotland) or the National Assembly for Wales (for sites in Wales) all administer the Act
 

pelmetman & pelmetlady

Well-Known Member
Maybe off topic, but as we intend to long term and spend the expensive months ie July August at the MIL in Weymouth, and as she currently only pays the single person rates, my question is how long can we stay there before we have to tell the council? and as we will be doing trips around the UK then catching up with friends so it wont be 2 months continuous:confused:
 

BigMomma

Well-Known Member
Shouldn't think that you would need to tell them at all as you are only really temporary 'visitors'. If she does tell them then there is a strong possibility (no, extreme likelihood) that she will lose the single supplement allowance and have to pay full amount. :eek:
 

pelmetman & pelmetlady

Well-Known Member
Shouldn't think that you would need to tell them at all as you are only really temporary 'visitors'. If she does tell them then there is a strong possibility (no, extreme likelihood) that she will lose the single supplement allowance and have to pay full amount. :eek:
Thanks BM, but I was wondering whether there is a set time limit:confused: ie 30 days?...................as you never know if some grumpy neighbour will grass us up if we stay over by a few days:cautious:
 

BigMomma

Well-Known Member
Thanks BM, but I was wondering whether there is a set time limit:confused: ie 30 days?...................as you never know if some grumpy neighbour will grass us up if we stay over by a few days:cautious:
The completely honest answer is I do not know the 'official' standing on this and perhaps there may be another forum member who has the knowledge. However, IMO, if you are only staying for a few weeks off and on during a two month period then I would have said that you cannot be considered as permanently resident at that address and therefore your MIL should not be liable for paying additional Council Tax. The way my logic works is that I could have a visitor come to stay for a period of say 2 weeks, then leave and another person come to stay with me, again for a couple of weeks and so on. I know what you are saying about neighbours, especially if they see your van there on a regular basis, however, if as you say, you will be coming and going then they could hardly state that you are permanently resident there, again, only in my opinion ;)
 

Landy Lover

Active Member
I think the answer lies within the use of the caravan whilst at your MiL - if you are guests there and opt to sleep in the van ie using it just as an extra bedroom and eating and doing your washing etc in the property then that requires no council tax at all however if your MiL is a single occupant and gets the single occupants discount it could be construe that she is no longer a single occupant - however if you are family then you are guests and provided you do move on the point should be proved. If you are living exclusively in the van and not using it as a ' bedroom' then the Planning Permission rule of 28 days would come into play - ie to use a caravan ( motorhome etc ) as a permanant dwelling in one location / place for a period exceeding 28 days continuously requires planning permission - as I understand it you could apply - it would be unlikely to be granted but you would be then liable for council tax as you have identified yourself as a permanent resident as I understand it . I also understand that if you move off for a few days then the 28 days would start again ref planning permission
I believe that different areas have different ways of interpreting the law so may well be worth contacting the local authority and advising them that you will be staying with your MiL and you will be parking your motorhome in her driveway - they will then note this and when a complaint come from a nosey neigbour they will already be aware of the situation so no action is due.
You would also need to find out if there are any covenants on the propery regarding the parking of motorhomes or caravans otherwise you may be getting into a whole new can of worms
 

BigMomma

Well-Known Member
Also, as an afterthought, not sure what address you will use whilst you are fulltiming and whether you will still wish to use your vote. If so, and you use your MIL address then you will appear on the electoral role at her address, then it would be considered that she is not living alone at the address and therefore not entitled to a single persons discount. MMM ! lots to be considered with this fulltiming m'larky isn't there :confused:
 

pelmetman & pelmetlady

Well-Known Member
Also, as an afterthought, not sure what address you will use whilst you are fulltiming and whether you will still wish to use your vote. If so, and you use your MIL address then you will appear on the electoral role at her address, then it would be considered that she is not living alone at the address and therefore not entitled to a single persons discount. MMM ! lots to be considered with this fulltiming m'larky isn't there :confused:
Oh'eck............maybe I should just give up and go on working for our MP's expenses:rofl:
 

John and Joan

Well-Known Member
I think the answer lies within the use of the caravan whilst at your MiL - if you are guests there and opt to sleep in the van ie using it just as an extra bedroom and eating and doing your washing etc in the property then that requires no council tax at all however if your MiL is a single occupant and gets the single occupants discount it could be construe that she is no longer a single occupant - however if you are family then you are guests and provided you do move on the point should be proved. If you are living exclusively in the van and not using it as a ' bedroom' then the Planning Permission rule of 28 days would come into play - ie to use a caravan ( motorhome etc ) as a permanant dwelling in one location / place for a period exceeding 28 days continuously requires planning permission - as I understand it you could apply - it would be unlikely to be granted but you would be then liable for council tax as you have identified yourself as a permanent resident as I understand it . I also understand that if you move off for a few days then the 28 days would start again ref planning permission
I believe that different areas have different ways of interpreting the law so may well be worth contacting the local authority and advising them that you will be staying with your MiL and you will be parking your motorhome in her driveway - they will then note this and when a complaint come from a nosey neigbour they will already be aware of the situation so no action is due.
You would also need to find out if there are any covenants on the propery regarding the parking of motorhomes or caravans otherwise you may be getting into a whole new can of worms
Hi
The 28 day rule does not apply to a caravan used within curtilage of a dwellinghouse.
CASES WHERE A SITE LICENCE IS NOT REQUIRED
Use within curtilage of a dwellinghouse
1. A site licence shall not be required for the use of land as a caravan site if the use is incidental to the enjoyment as such of a dwellinghouse within the curtilage of which the land is situaited.
The 28 day rule apples to parking on land and not using the facilities of a dwelling house. Both PP and a site licence would be required if the use in a year, exceeds 28 days. Each individual caravan stay is limited to two days
Use by a person travelling with a caravan for one or two nights
2. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule, a site licence shall not be required for the use of land as a caravan site by a person travelling with a caravan who brings the caravan on to the land for a period which includes not more than two nights
(a) during that period no other caravan is stationed for the purposes of human habitation on that land or any adjoining land in the same occupation, and
(b) if, in the period of twelve months ending with the day on which the caravan is brought on to the land, the number
of days on which a caravan was stationed anywhere on that land or the said adjoining land for the purposes of human
habitation did not exceed twenty-eight.
 

BigMomma

Well-Known Member
John, I am sure that Pelmetman will appreciate the trouble that you have gone to with the above explanation, however, I think there may be a bit of a misunderstanding here. Now it may be me that has got this wrong but my understanding is that Mr & Mrs P intend to do some 'Long Term' travelling but for part of the year, namely periods between July & August they will be staying with his MIL and using the residential facilities, as guests of his MIL, and not actually living in the van on the drive. They will not be there continuously throughout the two months as they will be visiting other freinds & family so they are not permanently resident there just long term visitors.

I see this as being no different to my Sister, who lives in Australia, coming across to UK for a couple of months to catch up with and visit family. She uses my house as her base but spends periods away during the two months at other relatives/freinds. I am sure that in such a case we would not be expected to declare this to the Council (none of their business) or subject to payment of additional Council tax.

The only sticking points that I can see are:

a) There is a covenant in the house deeds that states that Caravans/Motorhomes cannot be parked outside the house apart from such time as is reasonable for the purpose of loading/unloading.

b) Mr & Mrs P intend to use his MIL's address as there contact address to register for Voting purposes. In this case they would need to be added to the Electoral Roll at that address. If this were the case then the Council would consider that the MIL is not the sole resident and therefore cannot benefit from the sole occupancy tarrif.

the only way around this, in my opinion, would be for Mr & Mrs P to purchase 'Fulltiming' Insurance which would permit them to use the MIL's address solely as a contact address. An expensive option when there may be another 'unofficial' solution, I think its called being Discreet ;)
 

vwalan

Well-Known Member
could also be lying. thats why many dont fulltime.
it is the councils business ,they and the water board supply services based on how many people live in an area. etc. life isnt as easy as it seems. as more fulltime its going to get harder thats for sure. the days of jumping in a van and living are well past their sell by date.
 

BigMomma

Well-Known Member
could also be lying. thats why many dont fulltime.
it is the councils business ,they and the water board supply services based on how many people live in an area. etc. life isnt as easy as it seems. as more fulltime its going to get harder thats for sure. the days of jumping in a van and living are well past their sell by date.
Not sure that I totally agree with you Alan. The Council Tax paid is not dependent on how many people occupy the residence, it generally goes on the value of the property (What Band it is) and is based on 2 Adults (People aged 18 or over) occupying the property and does not include children. If me and my neighbour occupy similar properties ie: same Property Band then we will pay the same Council Tax, it does not matter that there may be only 2 people living in my house and 5-6 in his. The discount applies if you are the sole occupant who is 18 or over. When I became a single parent my youngest daughters lived with me, I was entitled to a 25% Council Tax reduction as the sole adult residing at the premises.
 

vwalan

Well-Known Member
if you get a reduction for being a one person house hold then it is based on one person living there. the clue is in the one person living there.
if you want a reduction abide by the rules.
if you want to live fulltime in a van do it .dont live in a house.
i understand how it works i claim single occupancy .
 

pelmetman & pelmetlady

Well-Known Member
Thanks John and BM, and your quite correct BM:thumb:.............we plan to spend just July, August possible a bit of September at the MIL but during that time we will also be touring the UK visiting friends etc.
As for covenant at the MIL as far as I'm aware there is not one and as the FIL used to park our camper there I don't see it as a problem:D....................The bit about the electoral roll is something we had not considered so will proberly have the SIL as our contact address:cautious:
 

dicktracey

Active Member
whitevanman speaks sense, sort of: live in a van or live in a house. Too simplistic alan, especially as you do both - dont do as i do, do as i say.
you know us, we are pretty dedicated fulltime freecampers. we arrived at our latest parkup yesterday afternoon, a white transit turned up, young'un in process of converting said van. had a chat, he came in for a coffee and ended up staying thru midnight. he shared his last smidgeon of grass with us (greater love hath no man . . . .), we all had a very nice evening and he may be back, and we may well not see him again unless we care to go to devon, which we dont. one of those typical freecamping freewheeling evenings spent with a perfect stranger (credit to his mum and dad who raised him) which cannot be replicated by housedwellers; when was the last time any of you invited a stranger in for a coffee?
This is why we do this and why we couldnt go back to living a static life in a static residence
 

vwalan

Well-Known Member
i dont say do as i do. i pay my rates and am a long time not living here . if you claim single occupancy then its for single use. if when i rent a room i come off the single occupancy. .i dont want to full time i have best of both worlds .we all meet strangers and can invite them back. i have invited some strange people into my van including you. ha ha . they have to be strange to know me .
 

BigMomma

Well-Known Member
if you get a reduction for being a one person house hold then it is based on one person living there. the clue is in the one person living there.
if you want a reduction abide by the rules.
if you want to live fulltime in a van do it .dont live in a house.
i understand how it works i claim single occupancy .
The debate I think we are having is not about how many are resident or indeed the discount for sole occupancy. It is actually what constitutes being 'Permanently Resident'. If someone occupies a residence as their home for the majority of the time then it is a fair assumption to state that they are 'pemanently resident' at that address. However, I would argue (note that I say 'I') that someone who is only at the residence on a temporary basis, and here we are talking about a couple of weeks at a time in a 8-10 week period, but who spends the majority of the year, 9-10 months, elsewhere, is NOT a 'Permanent Resident'.

It would be for the Council to define what period of time it would need to be for a person to be considered as a 'Permanent Resident', but as other's have stated on here on other matters, it may not always be condusive to ask the question formally :cautious:

I try to implement a certain amount of common sense in such debates, not that I know the formal or accurate answers and in this case i would ask you to put yourself in a similar situation. Let's say a freind you have known for some time turns up on your doorstep in their motorhome/campervan or whatever. They decide to stay for a while and they park up outside your house but during their visit stay inside the house with you. After a couple of weeks they move off to visit some other freinds or relatives for a couple of weeks then they return again to stay with you for say another couple of weeks before moving on again. They do this for a period of 8-10 weeks before finally leaving to go off 'long terming' in Europe or wherever. Would you consider that these freinds are 'pemanently resident at your house', I think not.

It is a completely different matter if someone who is staying with you is paying rent, they would then be considered as a resident at your address and you their landlord. You would then be liable for paying much more than Council Tax :eek:
 

Nomadic

Active Member
Is'nt the answer to contact the local Council, and offer to pay the 25% discount for the two month period. Then the spies can report all they wish, no problem.
If you want to use MIL for contact address, do you realy want to vote????
Just a thought
 

vwalan

Well-Known Member
it does help if you dont use that address as your address on the legal paper work. cant have it buttered both sides . if you want to change the goal posts you can but the answer changes with every change you make. if friends stop they stop .the op. was in the question using the mil address for paper work. but go and ask the council they are the important ones. but rent etc as no bearing on being resident. i had a friend live here for 3 yrs never payed rent they were a friend needed some where to kip as their house was renovated . but they did live here. i didnt claim single occupancy as the punishment hurts. try to abide by the rules ,use common sense or get into trouble .its too late when you get caught out.
 

Adverts

Top